Curse

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I even asked for a reason why they aren't changing it if they don't agree with our request. No answers given, so here I am. They say they appreciate our input, so as long as all of the people who want it changed continue to bring it up, they'll hopefully address it one way or the other some day.

I have spoken to and e-mailed Gaile with suggestions. Not rants or Moans but well thought out suggestions looking at the benifites for all players. Remember their is a bigger picture here, it's called balance. anythgin they add to PvP they have to balance it with the PvE. It's a big job, So yes now the PvP get progrssive unlocks it's what they wanted, but they must sacrifice something it's only fair on the PvE players.

Hows about this for an idea, instead of giving all the refund points you need. The Unworthy dead give you 250XP each. So after a few PvP battles you have all your refund points back.

So rather than demand they rewrite major parts of the game look at that is their and expand an elaborate. the rift wardens and other creatures gave you XP, so the Unworthy Dead should give you XP. If you can get 2000xp each if you get 10% morale and it drops down to 500xp for no morale bonus. As the progressive scalling of morale is already writen then it would be easier to put in progresive scaling of XP for the Unworthy Dead. A good team can get enough refund points in three runs at the HoH, that way it solves all your problems.

I'd say this is a better system because you used to get XP in the rift, and that should be easiy enough to put back in.

Amnisac · Jun 30, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

i agree with you completely. I just canged my ele before the patch, now I have 0 attb points and I can't go back to what it was.

Anet should add the seondary proffesion change so it refreshes your attb. ponts. Like it used to. That way only lvl 20s can do it.

Lalii · Jun 30, 2005, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Many, many clear and compelling reasons have been presented for the change. Absolutely all "arguments" against it have been vague ("it keeps the challenge!"), unhelpful ("just don't change your builds so much") or simply ridiculous ("don't like it? Go play Counter Strike").

Biased and totally untrue. There have been plenty of good counter arguments. Of course being of the opposite opinion to you as PvP means little to nothing to me (I'm here for the RPG) I tend to see very few good arguments saying why anything should be changed, all it comes across as is power hungry whining.

I'm not going to get into yet another debate about PvPers but I just wanted to point out that your statement was completely incorrect and tainted by your own opinions.

Dreamsmith · Jun 30, 2005, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Why are people treating a thread with the phrase "officially sucks" in its title like its a credible thread that merits serious discussion? Bizarre...

This is a complete duplicate of a previous thread as well (started by the same person, no less -- it's understandable when someone creates a duplicate thread because they didn't know the existing one was there, but the person who created the original should know better).

Stauf · Jun 30, 2005, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

Arrendondo, if you have all four slots filled up with PvE characters, you should not be calling yourself a PvP'er. You are a shame to the PvP community.

Right. Cause either you're a PvP'er or a PvE'er and you can't possibly be both. And you sure as hell can't change your preference for one or the other over time. Right?

Quote:

Stop acting all high and mighty. You do not deserve infinite refund points because your lack of foresight caused you to seal up your PvP flexibility.

Wow. Speaking of acting high and mighty...

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khift

You have to think one step ahead of him, Gabby. Now he's going to complain about how he shouldn't have to be forced to help people with things they don't need help in, and about how his guild is fully developed anyway and doesn't have many new members.

Gotta stay one step ahead, there, man.

Any Guild that claims they are fully developed shoudl play the Dev's. Really their is no such thing as teh ultimate build or ultimate guild. Their is difgferant tactics for differant situations. You never know 100% if anything will work until you try it and they it's still no 100%.

I like strategy games and for the one I play I have to think on my feet, their is no ultimate way of doing anything. because if their is their is no straturgy involved. AoE2 has some stratergy, however the lack of god AI buggers that up. However even the best gamers don't understand tactics and stratergy as I proved with AoE2, and this is the reason I don't like working with people I don't know in games. The first tiem I every played AoE2, I managed to play against one of the top 50 players. The guy resigned after 20 mins, becasue the tactics I used is not a gamer tactic, the guy could not beat me, and asked if he could use my stratergy.

Many real world battles ahve been fought wher the side with the least numbers and better tactics have won. having the biggest and most powerful weapons dose not mean you will automatically be the best and win every time. Just look at the veitnam war.

Now as a Stratergy games player I want the mini-map to be diabled in PvP and GvG. Let players fight it out and use real skill and battle field knowledge to win rather than just looking at the mini map.

With the mini-map the concept of hidieng and ambushes have been thrown out of the window. now if thwy wan the game to rely on real skill then the map should be taken out of PvP fights. Also the characters profession shoudl be hidden, as well as the skills they use.

People should to complaing it's not fair, and should use what tools they have to formulate stratergies that work. Rather than bitching they cannot win becasue they don't have everything.

In fact under the news system a PvP team I set up in the HoH, nailed a guld team with one mad down. Not becasue we had the best skills, not becasue we had everything unlock. No becasue we had better tactics on our side and a better team dynamic, a good team dose not need TS or vet a good team needs to know what the other team members will do in a given situation. If you know this you can win every time. I mean whats the use of skills if a rangers gets his way then your just relying on the weapons of the warriors, most of which are venly matched.

Haveing everything dose not been you will be better it just means you spat your dummy out and you don't know how to formulate tactics with limited resources.

I'm not 100% happy wiht the latest update becaus in a battle if you want an advantage you can press you have to work for it, thats the nature of competition and skill.

P.S. Khift, this is not a go at you but more at the moaning PvPers.

Divinitys Creature · Jun 30, 2005, 05:50 AM // 05:50

This is what I have to say about the update

Basically, it's a good idea but the rewards are a factor of 16 or more out of whack and that's fairly conservative.

theclam · Jun 30, 2005, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinitys Creature

This is what I have to say about the update

Basically, it's a good idea but the rewards are a factor of 16 or more out of whack and that's fairly conservative.

Well, let's hope that this patch is just a trial run for the PvP rewards system. If it's too slow, I have no doubt they'll change it.

arredondo · Jun 30, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabby2600

Hey ahve you heard of the words 'Guild co-oporations' if not it's a great way to get XP and money and you also helping out guild mates. You know take your uber lvl20 character back to ascalon and help a new guild member through the missions and quests. Now thats not grind that helping the guild. At the end of the day I get all the refund points I need for my Lvl 20 by helping out guild mates on the hard missions and quests. I don't find it a grind I find it fun and it imporve the whole guild dynamic.

Are PvE players forced to play PvP to get Signet of Capture icons or gold or access to special areas? Of course not. They don't have to play PvP at all (except for one minor battle). So any system that requires a PvP player to leave his desired area of fun should also not be forced to grind in a PvE system he's already completed.

Full 24 point refund, only in towns, it's not hurting anything in the game to allow it, I hope Arena.net makes it happen.

Sir Skullcrasher · Jun 30, 2005, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Don't want to start a flame war but is it just me or every patch that A-net made has either pissed off the PvPers or PvE peoples. I must agree with you that no attribute refunds sucks but complaining about it over and over again (yes, type in attribute refunds in search and you get alot of posts like that) won't help to get your point across. You must not forget that they can still patch up this problems (along with others) in the later patch, this isn't like the final patch and than A-net move on to a new patch and say screw GW. I'm sure they will work on new improvement over the next few weeks or months so just take a chill pill and calm down.

I guess everyone has to take their time to think about which attributes you wanted for you character instead of random picking (like i did

)

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Are PvE players forced to play PvP to get Signet of Capture icons or gold or access to special areas? Of course not. They don't have to play PvP at all (except for one minor battle). So any system that requires a PvP player to leave his desired area of fun should also not be forced to grind in a PvE system he's already completed.

Full 24 point refund, only in towns, it's not hurting anything in the game to allow it, I hope Arena.net makes it happen.

And are PvP playrs forced to Play PvE, the answer is not any more, and yes to some degree PvE player is forced to PvP. If we want a guild hall to role-play in we have either pay stupid prices, or PvP to get one. Why don't we get one for free when we complete the game.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with your counter argument, as now PvP player never need to PvE, but PvE players are still pushed that way to get a Celestial Sigal. Now to befair on the PvE players we want an easier way to unlock Sigils so we can role-play in the Guild Hall. We don't have this so their fore the best way to get one is to PvP.

And to counter your point a PvP player with a PvP character dose not have to PvE anymore to get stuff. So your point is. Oh thats it you want everything and you want it now, Sorry but the choise is yours you chose to have 4 PvE charcters Arena.net did not make this choice for you, no if you don't want to PvE anymore then fair enough delete a character and start a PvP character then you can rebuild the chracter as much as you wast with 0 grind. Don't blame Arena.net for your bad decisions and stubborness, you shoudl have used forsight and realised that a PvP character has much more flexablity for PvP than a PvE character.

So now you have dug your hole don't demand that Arena.net gets you out of it, it's your fault you did not think and now your to stubborn to go for the obvious option with will suit your current needs down to the ground.

I find your argument totally invalid and pointless, aAena.net is their to help the comunity not dig a few players out of their own holes.

Ancalagon06 · Jun 30, 2005, 06:50 AM // 06:50

one big flaw in your plan, man. Your PvP character can't get to a town, so this whooooooooooole thing is just a moot point.

Paladin_Adoni · Jun 30, 2005, 06:56 AM // 06:56

yeah, I thought he WAS talking about PvE characters in PvP. not PvP only characters

now im confused

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancalagon06

one big flaw in your plan, man. Your PvP character can't get to a town, so this whooooooooooole thing is just a moot point.

Exactly. I think it's purly a case of the player did nto use forsight and did not think to save a slot for a PvP character. It is quite painfully obvious thats the reason for the 4 slots, 3 to unlock all the skills and one which has the flexability for PvP, which can be deleted and rebuilt.

The guys argument is like this I want to PvP now, but I don;t want to use a PvP character. in essensce he is making the whole unlock system of guild wars pointless, becasue if a real PvP player wants to have the flexablity arredondo want then the PvP character build will offer this and more. So by his own admition a PvP player does not need the unlocks system becasue the PvE charactrs shoudl have the flexability not the PvP character. So the unlocks system is useless to PvP player and should be taken out again.

OK read this thread becasue as a strategy player and tactical thinker, I want a game based of player skill not hours spent grinding, which is what Guild Wars promised. This thread puts together a series of changes which will makes time spent irrelivant and make tactics and the ability of the player what PvP and GvG should be about.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=27003

Becasue at the end of the day the PvPers complain about how the game is nto what is says on the box. But their demands don't even push the game in the right direction, So I say lets give them what they want lets give them skill over time spent and then lets see who wins.

Siren · Jun 30, 2005, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Yes, some might be all giddy that they can now unlock a minor Insipiration rune after 140+ wins in arenas. Whoopee. However, for those who want the same freedom for changing Attribute points around that Arena.net allows for changing secondaries and skills (just so we can actually play a couple of unique builds without grinding 6,000 XP in the PvE farm fields), the lack of an update to it is very puzzling.

We've seen dozens of threads on the matter, and as more people leave PvE (where this issue doesn't matter at all) and graduate to primary PvP play, it'll continue to be brought up. Why? Because, as it stands, there is NO benefit at all to leaving it as is, but it slows you down to a crawl when you are creating and testing innovative PvP builds with your long-developed character.

Many, many clear and compelling reasons have been presented for the change. Absolutely all "arguments" against it have been vague ("it keeps the challenge!"), unhelpful ("just don't change your builds so much") or simply ridiculous ("don't like it? Go play Counter Strike").

PvP-only creations don't refund the points since you can't farm grind (except after winning 15 matches) and many of us want to continue to grow with our original character. Sure, delete everytime - but if it serves the same purpose of resetting in town, why go through the hassle?

No one has been able to address why Arena.net allows so much unhindered freedom for secondary and skill change, but not for the Attribute refund points that support those changes. No one addresses how in ANY way, refunding the 24 points (in a TOWN only!) would harm the economy, the play mechanics, the balance, or any other significant gameplay experience.

Any counter-argument you can think of however, I'd ask one question... why not apply that same standard to freely switching secondaries and skills? Having to grind 6,000 XP to change those components seems too ridiculous to even suggest, right? And that is proof of how ridiculous this restriction is. All three components work together, so all three deserve to be freely adjusted (in town only!).

If the change we've been requesting had been made today, how many of you would HONESTLY ever notice (or care) that someone is changing their Attribute points as freely as we are allowed to for secondaries and skills? Think about it. Only the 1v1 arena request has probably gotten more threads created.

There are two black and white scenarios we're talking about here... it's not complicated at all:

A) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you grind away on the unrelated PvE farm (that's been nerfed) for 6,000 XP.

B) Feel free to change your attribute points for PvP build creativity and variety - only after you go to town and are away from battle.

We all currently endure 'A' for our carefully developed characters. What purpose does this forced farm grind, for those of us who have finished PvE completely, serve the game? A and B serve the EXACT same purpose, but design decision 'A' has a fat wad of grind dropped into it that benefits NO ONE, especially the concept of fun play. We've already FOUGHT those monsters... what does it have to do with PvP creativity? And all it would've taken was for Arena.net to do what? Type in a 5 minutes worth of code to restore a single value to '24' whenever a town is entered?

Guild Wars as a game gets a sterling 98% from me and I recommend it to all my friends. Arena.net's continued attention to the evolving (and at times conflicting) needs of the community is to be thanked and commended as a sterling example in the gaming industry as to how a company succeeds with their public. PvE was fun and exciting, and I eagerly await the time when I can pony up the $$$ for more adventures.

That does not keep a lot of us PvP players from constantly point at the one huge creativity-hindering and unnecessary splinter that is begging to be pulled out - please, please, please: reset the refund points back to 24 once we enter a town.

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Amen

Well some of us role-players do as we don't scream and shout and spit our dummy out at every turn we don't get what we want, and the PvPers get everything they want then moan about how it's not enough.

Us role-players are starting to feel the evil hand of PvP oppression and we want it to stop.

Ancalagon06 · Jun 30, 2005, 07:12 AM // 07:12

When are we going to get RP servers, anyway?!

gabby2600 · Jun 30, 2005, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Hey we can have the satisfaction the the RP players want things for the good of all players not just for themsleves. All in all I think that makes us better people to know and get on with.

Shadow_Avenger · Jun 30, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I do like the idea of being able to change attrib points at not cost in towns only, or in PvP arenas after a battle.
The current system doesn't bother me personally though, the XP require is not a great deal and is easily acheied, if anything, it makes me think about my changes more and use the skills they provide to the best advantage.
I haven't got any PvP characters and tbh doubt I will, I can go to PvP arenas with my PvE character and PvP with the classes I enjoy playing.
The only thing that I do find alittle irk some is the lack of viability of changing secondary class after ascending, they have adressed it slightly in this update as I can farm for xp / skill points or PvP to earn the extra skills for a change in secondary.

arredondo · Jun 30, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

^^^ Yes, but at least before you could earn some XP from fighting in PvP with your main character. That is now gone. Faction points are great for buying permanent items, but you will ALWAYS want to switch around your secondary and skills to test out you great PvP build ideas.

Your secondary and supporting skills need Attribute Refund Points to make the changes worth anything. However in the latest update, Arena.net now forces you to take your main character and slave for the 6,000 XP on the grind farm just so you can make those changes. No benefit can be seen by keep us from having a full 24 attribute refund points in town.